Nothing Works

[00:00:00] Speaker A: So I have a question for you guys since you're both seasoned fathers. I now have a four month old. So what is your top advice? And we're also heading to Italy in August, so any travel tips with with with the young one? [00:00:16] Speaker B: So don't go to Italy in August with a kid. [00:00:19] Speaker C: I was about to welcome to the off site podcast. I am your host, Jordan Gahl. This is where I team up with friends to catch up on our work and just as importantly, what's going on the work. As always, this podcast is brought to you by Rosie, the AI powered phone answering service for small businesses. Hello gentlemen. Thank you for joining me. I have two of my friends on the show, Chris Skimmer and Craig Hewitt. Welcome to the show, gents. [00:00:49] Speaker A: Thanks for having me. [00:00:50] Speaker C: Yeah, it's Friday. Beautiful summer Friday next. Next Friday is July 4th. Excited to go celebrate America and our unbelievable military hardware and some, some barbecues and so on. Thanks for jumping on. I want to hear first, what are you guys up to? You know, people hear from me about Rosie every week. Chris, what have you been up to? We were just talking a little bit before we started recording. Catch us up on your, on your work. What do you got going on? [00:01:16] Speaker A: Well, I was just telling Craig before we start recording that it's taken a lot longer to get to where we are right now, but we're finally at a place where with good Metrics, which is the web analytics tool that we've been working on, where we're pretty much ready to roll out like a proper beta. So I've been kind of working on just polishing up some of the documentation, the onboarding flow, getting that already and also been doing some vibe coding as well, which has been pretty fun and interesting and I'm sure we'll get into some of that. [00:01:53] Speaker C: So those two are contradictory. It took a long time to get to V1 and I'm Vibe coding. Are you saying that it takes more than seven days to get a product. [00:02:02] Speaker A: To market these days, a complicated product like good metrics, it definitely takes more than seven days to bring that to market for sure. [00:02:09] Speaker C: I want to think, tell me how you feel about this, that those complex products are still worth building because of that hurdle, but I'm not sure. [00:02:19] Speaker A: Yeah, it's funny, I was just talking to Mark, my co founder yesterday. We were having a phone conversation and on one part we were just talking about how painful it's been. You know, just some of the steps, you know, we had to couple, take a couple step backs in certain area. But at the End of the call, we were like, no one's going to Vibe code good metrics. Like, it's just not going to happen. So as painful it's been to like get to the point where we are now, it is a bit reassuring that it's more of like a future proof product in the AI age. And just for context, for anyone listening who doesn't know me, I'm not a developer. So when I say I'm vibe quoting stuff, it's like Python scripts and like stuff to automate marketing tasks. It's not like building the actual product. [00:03:02] Speaker C: Itself that I want to hear more about because I'm. I felt myself pulled into wanting to learn more about it myself. But let's hold off on that. Craig, what do you got going on at Kastos? [00:03:14] Speaker B: Most all of my time is like on marketing. We brought in Mark Thomas a couple of months ago to help with marketing. So Mark, for those of you who don't know him from previously, was at Powered By Search. [00:03:25] Speaker C: Yep. [00:03:26] Speaker B: I mean, no offense to either of you guys because you're both really good like founders. He's probably the best marketer I know of. Like him and Asia Arangio, like the only kind of two people I would probably choose to work with. He was at Powered By Search and then Podia for a long time as like head of marketing and then went on on his own as doing kind of a fractional thing. So we have him about a day, a week to help with marketing. And I mean the short version is trials are up 30% since we started working with them. So that's cool. So Mark, thank you. The best is it's not just some fucking consultant who just comes in and tells you what to do, borrows your watch to tell you what time it is. He's doing stuff and it's been almost all bottom of funnel conversion stuff. So like emails, affiliate stuff, website, you know, tweaking. And he's doing all of it because he's like a really elite like founder level marketer. And so we just have a call like every other week and he goes and does stuff and we get trials. So that's amazing because we've been relatively like plateaued for a while. So like to, to be kind of busting through that in terms of trials and that's kind of coming through revenue now. That's cool. I am also vibing quite a bit because I kind of look at like what Mark is doing most. All of it is kind of bottom of funnel conversion stuff. And so like we had A call yesterday, I'm like, man, like, at some point we're just going to like, saturate that, right? So, like, we need top of funnel, like acquisition stuff too. Give me something to do. And so, you know, some strategies around that. Most of it has to do with the realm of, like, AI SEO and that is, turns out way more complex. Like, that's an umbrella term and we can get into this. Maybe like, that is. That is not a thing. That is like a category. Whereas, like, SEO before, which is all that we did that worked to acquire customers was writing shit and it being on your website. To me, AI SEO is basically a bunch of shit that's not on your website mostly. And so that, that's. That's a really complex thing. [00:05:20] Speaker C: Okay, I just had a bunch of conversations about AI SEO over the last few days. This week, for similar reasons. We have a fantastic SEO agency called Snippet Digital, and they have built out our site. They've done an incredible job at the content that lives on our website. And now we're starting to, you know, get to the end of that plan. Like, they came out with this big, like, map of what pages need to exist between solutions and industries and so on. And now as we're approaching, like, completion of that initial plan, we're looking at what needs to happen outside of the site. I'm at a loss. I still see AI SEO as if it's in the dark and hasn't been fully defined. Sounds to me like you can at least identify what's happening to the point where you see it as like a set of tasks that you can go after. Or is it still very fuzzy? [00:06:12] Speaker B: Super fuzzy. Like, I'm gra. I'm glad Chris is here because, like, he's like SEO ninja from, like. Because that's how Snappa, like, kind of got a lot of its traction. So I'd love to hear Christopher kind of chime in on this. I'm doing kind of a whole series on rogue startups about this. So yesterday I did two interviews. One with Lars Lofgren, the man, Right. And the other was Mike Buckbee, who has, like one of these AI SEO analytics tools. It's called Noah Toa. The short version is the shit on your website is important, but it's like the fourth most important thing. And all that's important there is bottom of funnel stuff. Very simplified bottom of funnel. This is what we do, this is who we're for. These are our features. So the LLMs kind of understand it, then basically distributing that same message in slightly different formats to three places. YouTube, Reddit and LinkedIn. [00:07:02] Speaker C: Okay, so I knew YouTube was there. I knew Reddit is very high on my list of priorities around AI SEO, but I did not realize LinkedIn. So effectively the LLM goes out and looks for conversations and then matches it with what your site, what they know your site is about and tries to understand if surfacing you as an option or an answer to an LLM based request, if you're appropriate or if you're the most appropriate. Chris, would you like to come in here and help to drowning people talking about SEO? [00:07:34] Speaker A: So I actually read a good article. Do you guys know Benji from Grow and Convert or have you heard of them? [00:07:40] Speaker C: Yes. [00:07:41] Speaker A: So they're a pretty high signal content marketing agency. And Benji just wrote a really good article about the difference between or essentially what's important with AI as it pertains to SEO. Essentially his point was that top of the funnel content is essentially dead. Um, so like people used to try to rank for like what is content marketing and that would bring in you know, 8,000 searches a month. You would rank at the top and like so HubSpot and all these like buffer, like they used to write all this kind of content. Like what is content marketing? Well if you put that in ChatGPT now it doesn't even link out to anyone. It just literally answers the question. So the other thing too is like let's say you were looking for like a content marketing agency. People would type in like content marketing agency and then you would have to sift through like 10 results or however many results in Google. The interesting thing with AI is you can say like we are a bootstrapped startup so we don't have any funding. We are a five person team. I've got a budget of xyz. We're in this industry. Please recommend some content marketing agencies that have experience in this and have a proven track record, blah blah, blah blah blah. So there's all of this extra context and so kind of what Craig was alluding to. It's like you need all of that information to be on your website and as like detailed as possible so that the LLMs can pick up on that. In addition, you also want people on Reddit and LinkedIn and on Twitter to also be kind of reinforcing this as well. So I think with like AI SEO, the kind of overall theme is like bottom of the funnel is going to be like 10x more important than it was. And I think like just generic top of the level bullshit content is like probably not going to be worth your time. [00:09:31] Speaker C: Interesting. I appreciate that. We just got a glimpse at Chris's level of prompting in that level of detail. Yeah. What that leads me to think is that I want to think that it's ICP dependent. I want to think, okay, our small business ICP is not that technical and they're not in ChatGPT. That assumption feels like it got blown up as Google is now surfacing all these AI responses at the very top of search results. So even if RICP doesn't live inside of ChatGPT the way a technical audience might, I feel like that no longer matters. As soon as Google starts putting these answers all the way up at the top, they dominate. And it's almost like, what's the point of trying to rank on page one with this other type of content? I know myself and I assume others. When I see the response written out the way the AI responses at the top of Google, I trust that more than a listing. [00:10:26] Speaker A: Yeah. And I think on top of that, it's going to start changing, like user behavior because they're used to typing in like literally one or two words in the search and then it comes up with all these search results now that they start seeing these like AI overviews. I think over time even like the boomers with no tech experience are going to kind of get used to and trained to write longer and longer prompts into that Google search bar. [00:10:51] Speaker C: We all got trained on how to search properly, now we're going to be trained on how to prompt properly. [00:10:55] Speaker B: Yeah, I think the other part to consider, and again, like, I don't have any of these ideas. This is just from a conversation I had yesterday. Literally yesterday is it's important to think of the context of the LLM or the platform in how you try to position yourself and the intent that someone would use it for. So ChatGPT and Claude and Gemini and Meta and. And fucking Amazon. Right. Amazon has Claude on the back end. Right. So what would someone go to Meta AI in Instagram for? Well, it's to find a new pair of socks or whatever. What would someone go to ChatGPT like, ChatGPT is trying to position itself as like, I'm your kind of personal assistant, therapist, thought partner, blah, blah, blah. Claude coding. Gemini. I have context across your entire organization through Gmail and Docs and all this kind of shit. So like, that's like higher level, I think, but. But like, how you position yourself even within each of those is worth thinking about. [00:11:56] Speaker C: The three of us have very different things that we're focused on. So Chris is about, correct me if I'm wrong here, Chris is about to introduce a new product and then the most important thing is initial users. Craig, you have grown and then now are trying to figure out how to get to the next level. And for right now we're focused at top of the funnel because our conversion funnel is doing a good enough job that increasing at the top of the funnel would make a bigger impact than dialing in the conversion rate a little bit more at the bottom. How does that translate into what you are doing during the week, what you're actually focused on? Right. Chris, I know for you, can you describe what that moment feels like? What are you a few weeks away from introducing a product that people can come and sign up for? [00:12:41] Speaker A: Yeah. So right now we basically have like an alpha product. So we've got a couple people that have good metrics running on their site and that was good to let us squash any bugs, get some initial feedback, you know, battle test it kind of thing. So we're basically like probably two weeks away from having a more refined beta where there's like actual onboarding, account settings, you know, all the kind of key initial features. So like we have like a launch list or a waiting list, I should say, and you know, a bunch of people kind of eager to test it out. So we're kind of just right at that stage where we're ready to kind of roll it out to that set of users. [00:13:21] Speaker C: And is this a self serve product? So when you email your list, you're hoping people click sign up on their own, put the credit card on file, whatever the onboarding process looks like and get going. [00:13:30] Speaker A: Yeah, exactly. It's self serve. So right now if you go to our website it'll say like, join the waitlist. So we're going to change that to request an invitation. So I want to keep it a bit like manual to start until we're at a point where like we can really start to open up the floodgates. But like once I send out like, here's your link to get started, like from there that's all self serve and. [00:13:53] Speaker C: You'Ve got pricing, the initial pricing set, like you're ready to take on paying customers, not just, not just usage. [00:14:00] Speaker A: Yeah, exactly. So basically like anyone who comes in the beta, essentially they'll get like, you know, know a month or two, like free trial. But the expectation is like, hey, here's what the pricing's gonna be. So like it's not like, oh, try this out and you know, let me know what you think and you can use it free forever. It's like you're only trying this out if, like, you might actually want to become a paying customer. [00:14:21] Speaker B: Yes. [00:14:21] Speaker C: And you've telegraphed that. I love the way each of us end up coming up with a relatively unique way to do that, to convince people to pay, when to pay, pay upfront, don't pay. It's like this mixture of how, like, confident you want to come off, how quickly you want or need revenue, how much you value usage and signups over revenue. I always think about it. We're almost a year into our product and I think about pricing probably more than anything else. Craig, first of all, I love Mark. I have to say that I worked with Mark. We worked with Powered by Search and Mark was like our lead there. So I, you know, congrats. I think you got, I would say lucky, but you did it on purpose. So what is going on in your universe? Why are you looking at top of the funnel as. As the thing to focus on? Or maybe I have that backwards that you're doing bottom of the funnel first. [00:15:16] Speaker B: I raise my eyebrows because, like, I would say customer acquisition is like the focus, like where in the funnel it is. Like, I don't. It's not just one place maybe, but as opposed to like product or churn or sales or pricing. Like, I think all those things are pretty well nailed. I mean, we're an eight year old company so like, we should have some of that shit figured out. And we do like our churn is like 1%, which is like unheard of and like a beta prosumer product. And I know it's a quarter of a lot of our competitors. So, like that, like we have something right there. It's probably a combination of like our team and the product. We just need more butts and seats. Right. So like, how do we do that? So, yeah, Mark's amazing. I think, like, rightfully he's focused on like the early, quick wins, but like, I see the steam of that like running out at some point. And so we need a way to like, get more there. [00:16:07] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:16:07] Speaker B: And just really, really plainly, for me it's two things. Taking all of the shit from our website and putting it into those other places that we talked about. So like Reddit, LinkedIn and YouTube have been pushing pretty hard on the Castos YouTube channel for a while and it's really hard, like getting a YouTube channel like in a pretty specific niche, like that is really hard. And we're getting dozens of views A video which is really dejecting because they're really hard to create. Like, this is easy. Like I just get on and talk and we bullshit and like, it's, it's great. But like to spend hours of my and the team's time to get 20 views is like, okay, like, maybe this is not it. [00:16:51] Speaker C: How do you do that? How do you stick with that? I run out of steam relatively quickly on marketing experiments that don't work. I kind of convinced myself, like, hey, if this thing's going to work in the first few weeks, it's going to work. Otherwise, stop. Are you a quitter? Like, I am, Chris? [00:17:06] Speaker A: It depends on the channel, but I think with like YouTube, it's like it's such a, like content marketing. Like YouTube, it's such a long form type of strategy where like, I think you really have to give it some time. It's very rare that like you start an SEO campaign and you're going to hit paid or within like, you know, on like day 10 or whatever. [00:17:26] Speaker B: So I think YouTube is probably like the best channel for most businesses. Like just across the board. Like YouTube, for a lot of reasons is amazing as a podcasting company too, right? Like, I think this podcast on YouTube will probably do better than it will in podcasting platforms. So like, that's cool. I think podcasting whatever is evolving and like how we distribute this piece of content kind of doesn't matter. But like those two places are really important. So. So like that's where I'm spending a, a fair chunk of my time. We have all the content on the website. I'm getting some of it up to YouTube and then some of it is the other way around where I publish to YouTube first and then disseminate to the website and Reddit and LinkedIn as articles. But that's generally what I'm doing is like we've covered all the content in one way or another, kind of filling the gaps of where it is in the other kind of platforms and increasing like the distribution breadth of our content and using a lot of AI for all of it. [00:18:22] Speaker C: So Chris, you're almost on both sides of this because you're interested in creating content and then your product helps measure. I can tell you from our experience, measurement, analytics, reporting is just one ongoing disaster after another. It's so hard. It feels like it really shouldn't be this hard. We've gone from Google Analytics to amplitude. Right now we're using quicksight, which is like this like, you know, AWS power thing. And that is by Far the best we've been so far. But it's still not easy when you think about your tracking tool. How does it match up with these concerns and problems? [00:18:56] Speaker A: Yeah, so this may be a controversial take, but I think anyone who's trying to have like, 100% accurate attribution is going to be very disappointed and waste a lot of time. So my kind of viewpoint is like, if your analytics is like 80 to 90% there, that's really what's important because what you're looking for is that you need it to be directionally accurate. So if your analytics tool is telling you that like, a hundred conversions came from Google and like 20% is direct, but the numbers are actually 103 and 18, like, that's all you need to know. Last click versus first click and multi. Like, you know, if you're working at like, a $10 million startup and you've got like, data scientists on board, then, yeah, you can afford to get, like, as, as nitty gritty as you want. But, like, for the types of companies that, that we run, I just don't think it's worth it or that it's even possible to get the level of, like, detailed attribution that I think a lot of people are striving for. [00:19:59] Speaker C: And is your product focused on that attribution at the front, like, where the traffic came from, what they did on the site and who converted? Or does it also play a role after they've created an account between there and, like, activation and conversion? [00:20:12] Speaker A: Yeah. So we'll give you basically first click and last click, which I think is, you know, kind of the most accurate and relevant. So basically, like, we can tell you, let's say someone searched for something and they landed on your blog post. And then let's say they came back like a month later and they actually started a trial and became a paying customer. We can tell you, like, the initial blog post that they landed on, which then led to like a trial a month later. [00:20:40] Speaker C: Give me a minute here. I'm going to tell you a cautionary tale and a commercial for your product at the same time. Okay. We just got lured into a trap. I got lured into a paid advertising, paid marketing trap. What happened was that we were running a bunch of different campaigns on Meta and on Google. And one of the campaigns, a pmax, right. Google Performance Max campaign, which is one of these campaigns that you basically give them content and they go out and find conversions for you. So you give them text content for text ads, you give them static for static ads, you Give them video and they go out and find conversions for you. It's like the most hands off. You are the algorithm gods. You go find us conversions that worked so well and kept improving at such a high rate. We were getting conversions and signups for so much less than all the other, all the other campaigns that we thought we had pay dirt. We thought, oh my God, this, this is going to, you know, absolutely skyrocket us. So what we did is we started pulling budget from campaigns that were working but were much more expensive on a cost per conversion basis and putting it all into the pmax campaign. And our signups went through the roof. And then like two weeks later, our normal conversion is somewhere in like seven to eight day range and the conversions just weren't coming and we had to look into it and figure out what was going on. And then what we realized is they were bringing in bad fit customers. And we start to get a little bit of qualitative feedback in our support channel. People would be like, can I use this to call my parents in South America? And we'd be like, what? Like how is that related to an AI voice product? And what turns out is Google went out and found these conversions. But because we didn't have good tracking set up, we didn't see that the people who were activating and converting were coming from the old campaigns, not from the pmax campaign. And then we had to turn it off and put budget back and build the other campaigns up. I basically lost four weeks of growth because I got lured into this trap because I didn't have good analytics and reporting. [00:22:40] Speaker A: The way I look at analytics is number one, you want to know where your traffic's coming from and what your best sources of traffic from and then what's. What content is converting best. I feel like that's really the bread and butter of what an analytics tool should be because you just want to maximize your efforts on what is actually working and measure that as best you can. I just don't think it's worth tracking every single fricking button click on your website and try to figure out the optimal. With Snapple, we wasted so much time trying to figure out optimal onboarding flows and product journeys and all the. It's just like we just didn't have enough data to even do that. And to think that that was even possible for us to do was like kind of ridiculous. Looking back on it. [00:23:29] Speaker B: I think the other part of it is those two things you mentioned are really hard in GA4 to know your best content and where Your customers are like, I don't know, like currently. I don't know where those things are coming from in GA4. [00:23:42] Speaker A: That's why we build good metrics. [00:23:44] Speaker B: Yeah, there you go. [00:23:45] Speaker A: Yeah, thanks for the commercial. [00:23:47] Speaker C: Yeah, there you go. So gents, both of you mentioned vibe coding. Where are you on things right now? What is your response to like the doomer argument around what AI is going to do to jobs? What is it doing to your job? What are you being pulled toward building like content and videos? Or is it tools internally or is it like entire products? What do you guys have going on? [00:24:12] Speaker B: It's mostly internal stuff, I guess, like by functional area in the company. Developers obviously are using their developer stuff. It's helping immensely. That's a combination of things like cursor or whatever they're using and this thing called code rabbit, like automated pull request review. So they're using a multitude of tools there support mostly. So we have an AI bot on the site which like decreased our tickets by like between 30 and 50% and churn went down. [00:24:42] Speaker C: Who do you use for that? You can think about it while I complain about fin which I love as a product but the pricing drives me out of my mind to pay per resolution. [00:24:49] Speaker B: It's called Docsbot. Docsbot AI. It's trained on our stuff in help scout. It updates all the time. You can train it on an entire website. Yeah, it's great. It has like an escape hatch. Like I want to talk to human so like support that. That's only within the product. It's not on the marketing site. And then for me like on the marketing side, mostly content creation and like regeneration like I was talking about and then building free tools. [00:25:15] Speaker C: Interesting. I like the free tools angle. Sounds like a perfect use case for for AI because you know what we talked a little bit about before we started recording was the work that you do with AI tools that normally wouldn't get done. And it feels like free tools are a perfect example. It's like do I want to go spend 10,000 bucks for someone to build me like a calculator? No, but if it's an know a few hours of work, then yes. [00:25:39] Speaker B: And just like from a tool before Christopher goes in, like from a tooling perspective, like I've played around with two categories of things. One is like the make and n8n kind of things. I find those much more complicated than something like replit or cursor. [00:25:55] Speaker C: Really appreciate you showing everyone how to pronounce N8N. Thank you very much. I had no idea whatsoever. [00:26:04] Speaker B: Well, I mean I think like when I, when I like realize that, I think it's really ironic because now I'm a non technical founder who thinks that like software development is the answer for everything, which is exactly what I rail against all the time. [00:26:17] Speaker C: Let's hear from Chris and I want to know what you mean by that because I have my thoughts as a non technical person also. Chris, what are you guys building? How many people are on your team? [00:26:27] Speaker A: Well, for good metrics, basically just like three people. So there's me, my co founder, and then we have one developer who's working on it. [00:26:33] Speaker C: Okay, I'm assuming AI plays a pretty big role on a three person team. We have six people and it plays a very big role. [00:26:39] Speaker A: They definitely are utilizing AI from a coding standpoint. It does have its limitations, but it definitely has sped up the workflow to some degree. Although I can't quantify that since I'm not as in the nitty gritty. So I'll give you another use case. So one thing that I was doing is there's a lot of people that complain about Google Analytics and GA4 on Twitter. And so one thing that I was doing is like every Friday I would just like type in Google Analytics and I would like manually go through all this and I'd find the people complaining and then I'd either like just put them in a spreadsheet for later or I would like reach out to them. Actually this is what I did kind of as part of the early validation and I would like either DM them or reply to their post. As you can imagine, it's like super time consuming to do this. So I thought this would be like a good kind of experiment. So I whip open ChatGPT. I'm like, Hey, I want to automate. Like can you help me automate this? And is it possible to just like build some type of script or tap into an API within seconds? Like I've got like a python script that's tapping into the Twitter API that is like fully automated this. And then basically what I did is like I created another script with a model and that reads every single tweet where someone mentions like Google Analytics GA4 and then determines whether they're complaining about it and could be like someone interested in switching. And then I also asked it to give like a confidence score from like 1 to 5 of like how eager they might be willing to switch depending on this. And so the next step is to then like right now I'm just like running the script Myself. But this could easily just be like automated as like a daily process. So that kind of stuff, it's like, you know, maybe you would hire like a VA to do that, but now you can literally do it for free and automated. The other thing that Craig was mentioning with like Reddit, Reddit's another Reddit's amazing because their API is like completely open and free if it's for like personal use or whatever. So I built another Python script that searches for all of the like relevant subreddits and again it does the same same thing it looks for anybody that's talking about ga, four alternatives, all that kind of stuff, scores the lead. And then the other thing that we plan on doing is adding value to. Let's say someone is posting about how should I set up UTM parameters? That's a really good post where we can go in and say, oh, here's how we recommended doing it. These are the benefits of doing it this way. So the script will also surface any post where people have analytics related questions, questions that would be good for us to go in and respond to. And again, not only is that this is a kind of obviously things that don't scale kind of thing, but to Craig's point, if we start getting referenced by these LLMs and all these Reddit posts that we're replying to and we're actually adding value. But when I ran the script, it had I think 1500 posts in one day, which you can't manually go through that. So the AI is doing that for me and only surfacing the ones are relevant to reply to. [00:29:51] Speaker C: Two questions for you. First, what's your, what's your go to tool that you use to accomplish this? [00:29:56] Speaker A: I'm like pretty new to this, so I've just been honestly just using like ChatGPT for, for most of this stuff and it works fine. [00:30:03] Speaker C: Yeah, I, I find ChatGPT is great. Where I got really into Claude is around copywriting. Chris is confirming a hunch that I have that is true. Limitations on how to utilize this stuff in our companies is really like a matter of imagination and realizing that you can do the thing that you are suppressing because you have layers of assumptions that tell you that you can't do it. And the more I get into AI, the more those, those like assumption layers get pulled away and then I get better and it feels like you're like a few months ahead of where I am in the evolution of just ask the thing to do what you want it to do and then ask it to Clarify and then ask it, to provide a score and then ask it. So it does feel like it's, it's a skill issue. It's a matter of really learning how to ask properly. The thing that bothers me is that I know there are ways to use these tools to blow the business up. I know it, it's out there. And it's like a failure of imagination on my part to not like, figure out how to use the tools to find the right customers, to get into the right conversations, to be on the right pages, whatever that combination of things is. [00:31:15] Speaker A: One thing I will say, which you kind of alluded to is when you start out and you do your first task, it's like, oh, this is pretty cool, can I do this? And the more you get into it, the more you're. My head is so full. A couple months ago I wasn't thinking about any of this. And then just the past few days, my head is just full of fricking ideas of, oh, maybe I can do this, or oh, maybe I can tap into that. And yeah, it's just like, I feel like if you get your feet wet and you just start playing around and experimenting, more and more ideas just come to you naturally. [00:31:49] Speaker C: What I use a lot is basically the marketing of new tools to help me come up with ideas. So when I see, here's a new video model, right, that helps me connect. Like, I want organic content about Rosie being published on multiple social media platforms through multiple profiles every single day. From where I am right now, wanting that to that actually happening feels like a pretty big distance. I don't really know how to do that. I looked at like influencer agencies and all these other things and I just know that I can get there using AI tools. I don't really know what the path looks like, but I know that there is a way for Rosie to be able to publish 20 unique videos through 20 profiles every single day about our ICP and about these things that we're working with and learning every day. I don't know if that's a job that helps companies get there. I don't know if that's the founder forcing themselves or the individual contributor forcing themselves to learn it. Craig, what do you think? Do you have these ideas that you would like to capitalize on but can't quite get there? [00:32:53] Speaker B: Totally. I mean, I think I'm in a similar spot to both of you guys. I have told the company, like, get on board or leave. And we had some people who were AI skeptics and they have turned around quickly and they're some of the biggest embracers of it. So I think that's one of them. It's like, that's not just us, it should be everyone. Because then you're multiplying by three. The whole company, not just you. I think the question that you had there is like, the biggest question is like, you're the founder, should you be figuring out this Python script? I. That's the question I ask myself is like, do, do I just need an automation engineer? And like, would that accelerate all this by like a lot? Like, if we all have all these ideas. But the limitation is the fuck is, you know, a shell script. How do I get this thing to keep running? And like, where, where is DigitalOcean? All right? [00:33:44] Speaker C: I mean, like, yeah, still a gap. [00:33:46] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:33:46] Speaker B: And that's why, like I overcame the gap, I guess, really practically by not trying to figure out N8N and webhooks and all this kind of crap. But like, I can just literally go talk to repl it and say like. And I did it this week. I was like, hey, I keep doing this thing where like I have a blog post or a YouTube video that I want to like transform into other things. I download our entire website and I uploaded it as a rag. Right? A rag is like where you can have it make sense of a huge amount of content. So I did that in like 20 minutes. And it's a little web application. It takes. And we could automate the whole thing. Right? But it takes as an input like a YouTube script and it gives a blog post, a LinkedIn post, a Reddit post, and two an email and two LinkedIn posts, all with the context of exactly how I write stuff. And it's just automate. And so then you could automate the whole thing. And I spent about a day and a half trying to do that in N8N. And that like, that's exactly what you're talking about, I think, is like, we have these ideas we don't have. I'll speak for myself. I don't have the capacity to do all of this kind of developer esque, no code automation stuff. So somehow we gotta overcome that. I don't know the answer, Chris. [00:34:50] Speaker C: How do you possibly stop yourself from getting pulled into introducing these things into the product? [00:34:57] Speaker A: Yeah, it's something I thought about briefly because there's a world where instead of just clicking around and looking at the reports, you just type in what are my best sources of traffic. To be honest, I don't see a reason why we wouldn't do that at some point in the future, I think it could definitely be super useful. [00:35:16] Speaker C: Yeah, I felt like I was missing out when I was running rally on the E Commerce side. And one of the reasons we pivoted into AI is because I was like, I refuse to miss out. It's just too, too interesting and grown too quickly and. And all that. Craig, I'm. I'm sure in podcasting there are a lot of use cases. [00:35:36] Speaker B: Yeah, it's coming. Like, I'm on vacation next week, but it's coming the week after that. Yeah. [00:35:41] Speaker C: Okay. Yeah. And our product is funny. Our product is a phone product, which is like the old school realm, but then it combines AI as the foundation of the entire product. And then we get people to sign up and then we're like, okay, so here's how you forward your phone calls. Go into your. Right, your Verizon Account and your RingCentral account and whatever else. Very, very strange mix. Let's back out of our own businesses and talk a little bit about what's going on in the market. I have found myself in love with Clulee. I have no idea what the product does. I looked at the site for, like, 10 minutes, but I'm so interested in what's going on around the marketing of it. And does this show a new path of, like, influencer, slash software founder, marketer thing? What. What is your gut on it? Are you disgusted? Are you attracted? Where are you? [00:36:34] Speaker B: I think, like, that there's two things to it. One is, like, is the product, like, ethical? Right? Like, do you. Do you kind of love or hate, like, the concept of the product and then how it's marketed? I think on the first one, like, whatever, I'm for it. Like, I think it's great. People are going to do it anyhow, so you might as well lean into it. I think that we've seen several of these big launches. The new electric, the new EV truck, Slate Slade was similar. Like, they launched with a big media campaign. And that, that was it. And I, I think it went very well. Yeah, I, I think if you're a B2C type product, that's the way. And what we typically see is, like, that's the Precursor to how B2B works a few years later. And so the smart ones of us will probably lean into that and use that as our GTM strategy. [00:37:18] Speaker C: Interesting. Chris, Chris, what's your take on it? You are a lot less bombastic and bragging and all that. That doesn't seem like your style. [00:37:25] Speaker A: I was just going to say, I'm way too left brain. Left brain is the analytical. I'm way too left brain to pull off that kind of stuff and be bombastic and have outrageous claims and stuff like that. So I'm probably the wrong guy to ask about that type of marketing. [00:37:41] Speaker C: I'm with you. I don't. I'm like anti bragging. It turns me off. I don't think it actually helps that much. I think it creates more envy and resentment than it does at positive attention. But I do think there's a lot to learn from it. It's almost like an attempt or a test on whether or not attention is so monetizable these days that it is the best marketing strategy. Right. It's like, is all press, good press? It's kind of like what this experiment is answering. [00:38:13] Speaker A: Yeah. I mean, one thing that I've been thinking about is like, you know, we grew Snappa, like almost exclusively through like content marketing and SEO and obviously like the playbook that worked whatever, five, seven, five, seven years ago, is not going to work today. And I think social media in general, like YouTube, that's definitely something we want to get into. I always resisted social media marketing and influencer marketing, whatever you want to call it. And I kind of feel like it's going to be hard to just completely ignore that. So part of me feels like I'm going to have to bite the bullet at some point and lean into social media a lot more than we have previously. [00:38:54] Speaker C: I think it's a matter of necessity because nothing really seems to work. The only thing that's working for us is paid ads, and that hurts to grow a company exclusively based on that. So all of my interest in SEO and the investment in AI SEO and figuring out it's really just to diversify so that we're not completely reliant on buying every single customer. It's not the worst thing in the world to buy a customer. But Chris, I'm very interested in a few months to kind of hear from you around what you find that works and doesn't work. What we have found is that nothing works, which is a very, very strange kind of spot to be in. I almost, I almost like feel extremely grateful that ads are working because if ads weren't working, I don't really know what we would do. And that used to not be the case. It used to be like, well, we could do, you know, cold outbound and we could do sales or we could do this funnel to a webinar, or we could do like they Used to be a set of options and I feel like they, they don't work. Maybe it's that the social media attention game gets the attention so it convinces you that that's what works because it's working on you actively. I don't know what to tell you, Craig. You've been around for years. It's weird now, is it not? [00:40:04] Speaker B: Yeah. I mean as you were saying that I was like, yeah, like just frankly like nothing is working for us. New trials before Mark came, which is like he's optimizing bottom of funnels. So that's not like what we're talking about, which is like new Eyeball acquisition. Nothing had worked. We also grew on SEO and then that, you know, whatever over the last two years just went to the shitter. We spent the first four months of this year going super hard on paid acquisition. Didn't work. That was kind of our last big one. And now we're back to the drawing board a bit with kind of AI SEO, which actually I'm pretty excited about because it is my jam. Like Christopher mentioned, like SEO and content was kind of what we did. So if this is just the new flavor of that, that's cool for me. I'm really energized by it from a, on a personal perspective. But otherwise, yeah, like we're not far from just being like, I don't know, you know, like we got a pretty good business but this is as far as we can take it. Like, I'm honestly not that far from that because. And I have visibility to a lot of companies. Like I do some advising with Tiny Seed. So there's like 200 companies there. There's not a lot of people that have acquisition figured out that don't have some kind of built in thing. That's not like the shit that we're talking about. [00:41:15] Speaker C: What do you mean by a built in thing? Like they're integrated with this platform and they get their distribution through this platform. That type of thing. [00:41:21] Speaker B: Yep. Or just the value prop is so strong that things like cold email work. [00:41:27] Speaker C: You can send an email and get to the point within one sentence and the person says yes, that hurts. [00:41:33] Speaker B: A month and it's $600. [00:41:35] Speaker C: Okay, okay, Chris, you obviously are thinking about this. How are you going to go to market? When you look at your set of options, you can't do every single channel all at once. How do you think about where to start? [00:41:47] Speaker A: So the one nice thing is we still have Snappa running, so we're definitely going to leverage that existing audience and customer base, and we're still getting thousands of trials each week for that product. So that's one nice thing. I think Craig coined the actual. [00:42:06] Speaker C: They're not the same audience. Right. [00:42:08] Speaker A: I mean, they're not the same. [00:42:09] Speaker C: Do you feel like there's enough overlap that you can really market? [00:42:12] Speaker A: Yeah, exactly. So is it just people? Yeah, there's basically an overlap. Right. Like anyone who's like paying for a tool to create like social media graphics, like, obviously has a website and, you know, some percentage of those are probably unhappy with Google Analytics. As a test, I already have, as part of the onboarding sequence, basically have like a drip email and we've got like hundreds of people that signed up for the wait list from that email. So there is like some cross promotion ability there. I also have, you know, built up somewhat of a network over the years running Snappa. So I think our wait list is, you know, several hundred people at this point. But yeah, so I think I'm basically using the Craig Hewitt active passive strategy. So, you know, going back to like the vibe coding stuff, there's. There's literally people every single day that are complaining about GA4 on, you know, Reddit, Twitter. So basically like, and I've already kind of proven that works to some degree. Like when we're in the alpha stage, I message a few of those people even before we built the product to see if they would be willing to like hop on a call and kind of share what they don't like about it. And like, actually got quite a few people that just had a call who, like, I didn't even know these people, so. So I think that part will work. But, you know, you can only like scale that so much. And then I think YouTube is definitely going to be kind of another strategy, I think in terms of content marketing, I think I have more faith in YouTube versus, like generic or more like general written content. [00:43:50] Speaker B: Jordan, I have a question for you. [00:43:52] Speaker C: Yeah, please. [00:43:52] Speaker B: Sorry, not to play podcast host, but I feel like we have kind of like channel dependency with paid acquisition. To me, you're early enough to where if you have something that's working, why not just go stay all in on that until you get to a million bucks or something? Does it seem like a distraction to try to find something else? [00:44:12] Speaker C: So first of all, we're past a million bucks. All right, let's just be completely clear. [00:44:17] Speaker B: Don't insult me. I didn't know that. [00:44:20] Speaker C: So maybe it's not surprising that at right around a million is where my brain said, okay, this is good, but But I need to think about other things because the, the thing about advertising is it's also pretty passive. So I'm not, I'm not working on that all day. And that leaves me enough time to think about the conversion activation funnel that I think about that a lot. Right. If you have, you know, a hundred plus signups every single day, improving the conversion rate at each individual step makes a real difference. So I think about that a lot and I feel like that's time well spent. This week we went through 15 iterations of the first screen of onboarding. So I'm basically taking it very seriously. [00:45:02] Speaker B: Yep. [00:45:03] Speaker C: We're doing this thing that I call Rosie 2.0. We're redoing the homepage and we're redoing the account flow, the sign up to create an account and then the, also the onboarding itself and the path to getting a credit card on file. And then we're taking that and we are experimenting with optimizing our ads for different events instead of just the account creation, but also making the first test phone call and also the credit card and kind of seeing where we find the best customers. So that's like where the majority of my focus is. I agree that A, we're lucky that we have this channel working. B, we, we should not be looking to exit anytime soon. As long as it's. The ROI is good and the ROI is pretty good. But we, I don't want to raise any more money right now. Right. We're, we're cruising on the money that we raised that rally and we pivoted and that makes things a little messier to go out and raise more money again. Generally people just don't care at all about what happened in the past and they just look at what you have right now and what the future is. So it's not like it's that big of a deal. But I'm not in a rush to raise more money. If paid gets to a point where it is so good that it is really just a matter of adding more money, then we will go out and raise more money and spend a lot more money. One interesting experiment that I can talk about there is we're just about to do our first TV commercial and that is basically an experiment on whether or not the more mainstream we go, the better things get. Because up until now it's been a straightforward thing. The more people see our product and because the value prop is so straightforward, like stop missing phone calls. This thing answers your phone calls like, you know, that's it. People get that Even if they're not technical, the more people see that pitch, the more people sign up. So this experiment is like, okay, we know we can do YouTube and all these other social platforms. What happens if we go to connected tv? The barrier to connected TV is the quality of the content. It's got to be high production value. So I went out and found a great video agency and we just, we just shot a commercial which was such a trip. It was a cool experience. I went on site, they happen to be in Chicago. So I went to the shoot and like met the actors. I was like, this is, this is crazy. And then we're going to put on a connected tv. So in many ways we are continuing to push and invest in the ads in the paid channel for sure. But I would love to make long term investments now that in the future start to contribute in a meaningful way. I don't care if it's 50 50, I don't care about organic overtaking paid, I don't really care about the ratios. But if non paid in the same way as as ads are paid, if it starts to contribute and it just brings down our cost to acquire customers overall, then that is just going to be much healthier for us. Especially if we get into a position where we are sustainable and profitable and don't need to raise more money. Then I'd like to run things that way if possible. [00:47:56] Speaker A: Have you found that like word of mouth has picked up more as like you've ramped up ad spend and gotten a bit bigger? Like is this the thing too where like if you spend tons of money over the next couple years and you get that much more people and then word of mouth spreads that eventually the organic will just kind of take off on its own. [00:48:16] Speaker C: So not yet, but that's the goal. The goal of our go to market and our positioning is to aim at the very bottom of the market. Very small businesses, very self serve, very relatively low cost, low complexity. And part of that is like how does this thing get to you know, tens of thousands of customers and it tips over into being the default. And then the word of mouth is this very natural, like you know, well what do you use? I use this or this right in that conversation it's like do you use the default like everyone else or do you have an alternative that we should talk about which is what happens as a market matures and the most well known become very well known. That's the goal. That's the strategy of Rosie, is to not increase the complexity and go toward Enterprise and more sophisticated customers. It's to just stay at the bottom so that that word of mouth kicks in as what I believe is going to happen. A ton, an absolute ton of small businesses are going to have an AI answering their phone. Right now there are like, I don't know, tens of Thousands, you know, 50,000, 25. It's really not many. But if there are 30 million small businesses in the US in the matter of two or three years, there will be millions that use this. And so that's why I want to stay right at the bottom. Very, very self serve. Basically the first place you go to if you start email marketing for the first time, you don't go into some very sophisticated platform. You sign up for a mailchimp account, you start there, maybe two, three years later, you graduate out and that's fine. But mailchimp is the default when people ask, what do you use for your email? That's kind of what people talk about. So that's the goal. Anything else you want to bring up? What do you got going on this weekend? Anything fun? Chris, did you invest in the circle IPO or not? Like I did not. [00:49:58] Speaker A: I did not. I'm not bigwig enough to have allocations into stuff like that. So I'm just holding my bitcoin, that's all. [00:50:07] Speaker C: Fair. Craig, what do you got going on? Anything fun for the weekend? [00:50:12] Speaker B: Yeah, we're heading to France tomorrow for. [00:50:15] Speaker C: Excuse us. [00:50:16] Speaker B: Yeah. So first time since we left three and a half years ago. So that'll be fun. [00:50:20] Speaker C: Wow. First time back? [00:50:21] Speaker B: Yep. [00:50:22] Speaker C: Cool. Where in the country are you going to? [00:50:25] Speaker B: We're going to Brittany. So like the Northwest coast. [00:50:28] Speaker C: Okay, very nice. My youngest daughter is. She's a Paris addict. She just wants to go to Paris. That's all she wants. [00:50:35] Speaker A: So I have a question for you guys, since you're both seasoned fathers. I now have a four month old. So what is your top advice? And we're also heading to Italy in August. So any travel tips with the young one? [00:50:51] Speaker B: So go to Italy in August with a kid. [00:50:57] Speaker C: Yeah. Travel with a four month old. You know, in many ways Travel with a 4 month old is easier than travel with a 14 month old. It is a bundle that you're, you can fully control as opposed to this like out of control, you know, little person that climbs all over the place. So your first kid? Boy girl. [00:51:14] Speaker A: First one, yeah. It's a boy boy. [00:51:16] Speaker B: Wow. [00:51:16] Speaker C: Congratulations. First of all, I don't know, I'm, I'm getting, I'm getting pretty deep in Craig, your Kids are a bit older also. Right. Ours are 9, 11 and 13. [00:51:24] Speaker B: Yeah. 12 and 14. Okay, okay. [00:51:27] Speaker C: Which is like a golden period because they're still young and love you and want to hang out with you, but not so old that they're creating independence, let's say, is what happens. So advice, man. [00:51:39] Speaker A: I don't know. [00:51:40] Speaker C: Enjoy it. [00:51:41] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:51:42] Speaker C: Craig, how actively do you think about your parenting? Do you just do what's natural and you kind of go about your day and this is who I am and I'm just going to be myself and I'm a dad and my kids are here and I'm going to do what I'm supposed to do and kind of. Or like, how deliberate are you in parenting technique and learning? And I'm not. I'm mostly natural, but I find myself lately thinking more abstractly about it. [00:52:06] Speaker B: So I think we were super type A parents early. Like where Chris is for zero to three, those formative years, really important. You know, food, reading, sleep, all that kind of stuff. Then like, I think the golden years to me are like four to eight. It's basically just like, they're cool, they're there, whatever. Now it's like I see the window of my influence on them closing. And so to. For my wife and I, we were just talking about this the other day. It's the hardest part of parenting by far because the pressure is super high. Like, I have a 14 year old that wants to go to the mall by herself and I'm like, have I done the work to where I don't need to worry? Largely, the answer is yes. But it also shifts from I just say stuff and that works when they're young to I have to be the better person, the best possible person. So they see, like, I want to be like that. That's how I think about it. [00:53:03] Speaker C: Okay. And Chris, four months, kind of still in survival mode. But how, how are you thinking about parenting? Are you like, reading books and like reading blog posts and like, you know, have a plan or are you just naturally, you know, letting it unfold? [00:53:19] Speaker A: I'd say more letting it unfold, but my wife is definitely more of like reading everything and she's so good about, like, trying to keep them stimulated. And she comes up with all these like, things to do and games and stuff like that. And she's, she's off now, but like, she's a registered nurse and she's worked with like, she's done like pediatric home care and stuff like that. So she's like super good with, with kids and Stuff like that. So definitely lucky to have such a awesome wife who's really good with him. But yeah, to Craig's point, I'm sure the older he gets, the more I'll have to start thinking about different parenting approaches. I do kind of like the idea of rather than him sitting in a classroom for eight hours a day, having more experiential learning and catering to stuff that he's interested in, as opposed to just being like super authoritative. So I definitely kind of thinking more about that style of learning, but I don't think I'm ready to do like full on homeschooling either. So that's definitely something that we're gonna have to think about like once. Once they reach school age. [00:54:29] Speaker C: Yeah, I. I do feel myself doing things that I think I might regret in the future around just defaulting to the these very normal societal, cultural norms around public school and travel soccer and these things that if you thought more about them, maybe you would go about it differently. But the river of zeitgeist just kind of takes you. And then here you are, you live where you live and they have peers and their peers are doing things. And it feels very unnatural to say, hold on. Philosophically I disagree with this. And therefore you shouldn't play travel soccer. It's like hard to square some of these theories with day to day. [00:55:08] Speaker B: I think it's hard to stop it if you never start. So, Jordan, you and I probably don't have a hope, but Chris, maybe just don't get into the system is the answer. I'll just real quick, I'll give. If we had to do over again, we would hire Mary Poppins, hire a full time, live in teacher, nanny, au pair, whatever. And that would be. That would be how we would educate the kids. Because I cannot educate my own kids. And I would hire a teacher. [00:55:36] Speaker C: Interesting. So during COVID we did something like that. I mean, not on purpose. So Carthook had an office in Portland. We had just signed a lease. And then Covid hit. So I'm looking at an empty office. And we started to think, what are we doing here? What are our kids doing? They're. They're stuck at home. So we turned the office into a classroom. We got together with six other families and we hired a teacher. And these six kids had a magical, magical academic year with just six of them getting to know each other. Play is different. Like, yes, social friction, but not in the same way as, you know, being with hundreds of kids. Super, super close attention from the teacher. It was Covid and It sucked. But for these kids, these six kids, this academic year was magical. And for the parents, it was really interesting, kind of forced experiment for us. Chris, where do you, where do you live again? You're in Canada, are you not? How, how is like the school thing where you are? [00:56:38] Speaker A: I was in Canada. I moved to Florida four years ago. Yeah. So I'm in Sarasota right now. [00:56:43] Speaker C: Oh, very nice. Nice spot on the west coast. [00:56:46] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:56:46] Speaker C: So are you looking at public school? [00:56:49] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:56:49] Speaker A: It's funny because the house where we bought is basically right. Or on the. We literally live in like the, the on the street where like the best rated public school is in the, in the area. But like I was mentioning before, I'm still not decided on whether we want to go down the public school road or. It's funny you're actually talking about the COVID experience because when I kind of drum up like what I think is the ideal scenario in my head, it's like very small, not even like a classroom, but like learning with. Well, basically it's like. Because my fear with what people would traditionally consider homeschool is like the whole social aspect. Right. So I think my ideal scenario is like you've got whatever five to 10 other kids that they're learning with and they're basically just doing like field trips, doing like experiences. And then either you hire like a tutor or the mom to basically teach like the basic math and reading and writing and all those kinds of basic skills. Like that to me is. And then if, you know, as the kids get older, if they show an interest in, you know, programming or there's a sport or whatever else they're interested to you, cater more towards that type of learning than to like force them to learn, you know, all this crap that is like not really useful or. [00:58:10] Speaker C: Relevant, like trigonometry and sometimes poisonous and sometimes overly ideological and sometimes in a bad environment, sometimes slowed down to accommodate for different speeds, all within the same class. It's really complicated. Have you seen a startup called Primer? [00:58:26] Speaker A: I have not. But yeah, I was kind of hoping that, like, someone will figure this out by the time our kids get to know each. [00:58:33] Speaker C: So you should check this out. So it's a, it's a startup called Primer. And what they do is micro schools and it's a little bit like what you're talking about. And they are available in Florida, Arizona and Alabama. Right. The states who are open minded around education, AKA open minded around their teachers unions. [00:58:53] Speaker B: So check that out. [00:58:54] Speaker C: Yeah, you should check that out. That's it. Yeah, look, we moved. Where we. Where we live right now are spectacular public schools, and the kids feed into a high school called New Trier, which is like Nashee, right? All these other things. Overall, it's good. It is really not that good. Overall, it's still a problem. It's a lot better than 95% of other public school systems. And we pay for it, but at least we feel like we get a lot for what we pay for. The parks are amazing, the beach is incredible, the schools and so on. But, you know, you're sending your kids to an education that's really, really far from where it should be. That's truth. [00:59:35] Speaker A: Yeah, should be interesting. [00:59:36] Speaker C: Cool, gents, let's leave it there. Thank you very much for joining. Maybe come back on in a few weeks. That's my goal with this podcast is basically like this revolving cast so you don't have to show up every week, but some familiar faces that we can kind of take the chemistry established from our friendships in general and just roll right into a podcast, not have to do a bunch of intros and who are you? And all that stuff. So thank you for making this a fun episode. Thanks, everyone for listening. I think what I'm supposed to do now, Craig, as I've learned from your team, is I'm supposed to give like a cta. I'm supposed to say, subscribe the off site podcast listening. YouTube. Cool. Thanks, everyone. [01:00:15] Speaker B: All right. [01:00:15] Speaker A: All right. Thanks, guys. Good, good chatt.